Diesel hybrid (RXH) engine - your thoughts please

[Anonymous]

Recently I have been researching these engines and I wondered whether anyone knows much about them. I must admit the thought of getting the performance and fuel economy that they promise is very appealing. It seems that more environmentally friendly options could become important in the future.

Have you got any thoughts on their performance/economy/reliability?

Do you own or have you driven the 508 rxh or other diesel hyrbid engine car?

Could Peugeot consider the RXH as an option for a new RCZ?

For a good summary click the link below:

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/07/11/pe ... otor-show/

 

[Anonymous]

Recently I have been researching these engines and I wondered whether anyone knows much about them. I must admit the thought of getting the performance and fuel economy that they promise is very appealing. It seems that more environmentally friendly options could become important in the future.

It's a normal 163 bhp HDi with an EGC gearbox and the Peugeot e-HDi stop start technology up front(cant have a manual version as the drive train managment system needs full control of both ends of the drivetrain) and a 37 bhp electric drive train in the rear. The alternator fitted generates a massive amount of power which is fed to the back of the car to the electric drive train to charge it up, there is some clever electronic gubbins in the back that contol the drive train and charging system so you loose a bit of space in the boot and cant have a spare wheel.
Be aware that like the petrol hybrids they will probably struggle to do anything like the published mpg as the official tests are so unlike real life driving that a large part of the test is done on the electric motor part of the drive train and have no resemblance to real life useage, the main benefit is that as the official tests are so lame the vehicle can get into the sub 99g co2 bracket and attract Zero rfl and the knock on company car tax benefits.The basic 99g 3008 hybrid4 cost 27k but the drive train avoids the 3% diesel BIK surcharge

Have you got any thoughts on their performance/economy/reliability?

You may struggle to get an answer to this as no one has done a diesel hybrid before,people aren't driving them yet so there is little data on reliability and the launch of the 1st vehicle with it (3008)isn't really until feb/march. As the extra drive train adds some weight I cant see them being massively fast ( top speed is 118mph in the 3008) but will drive nicely as the hdi engine has lots of torque and the electric motors will add to this. The car can be driven in ZEV mode which is just the electric motor to a range of about two miles, Auto mode where the car decides on the best HDi/electric combo, Sport mode which uses the electric motors to boost the diesel engine for extra oomph & 4wd model which runs the diesel engine and electric motors fully together.

Do you own or have you driven the 508 rxh or other diesel hyrbid engine car?

No one owns a 508 rxh it's not in production yet, only Peugeot/Citroen do a diesel hybrid and in the main the only people who have driven one so far are journalists and dealer sales staff on head office training done in preparation for the launch

Could Peugeot consider the RXH as an option for a new RCZ?

RXH is the name of the 508 sw concept not the engine, the 508 rxh will apparently be launched some time this year. The name of the drivetrain is hybrid4 , it's supposed to be modular so can be fitted to new models if Peugeot/Citroen design them to take it so the new Citroen ds5 will offer a hybrid option at launch in april and apparently Peugeot will bring it into the 508 saloon to create a low emissions fleet special model. So I'm sure they could consider it for RCZ but will they bother for the tiny amount of sales?


As you can see I have also been doing some research........

 

[Anonymous]

To be honest, what they need to do is get some of the research stuff that they all have been doing, into the market place.
Air valve Diesels (no cambelt, no camshaft) with total VVT and total variable boost, giving massive increase in MPG and torque.
BUT Mr BP and Mr Shell and others,pay to keep it under wraps.
Cracking the H from H2o is not rocket science any more, but it keeps being made a "problem".
Go to Hyde Park on the 1st Sunday in November, Rotten Row will have 6 or more electric cars from the 1900...... then ask yourself why are we seeing this again over 100 years on ? Just who was behind holding this tech back ?

rant over

Paul141

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think we need a tin foil hat conspircy theory.....no ones been holding it back... people simply haven't wanted it as the technology is very expensive and the cars its produces dont really fit in with peoples useage. Even now with all the electronic and battery advances a peuegot ion which is similar in size to a 107 costs 33k compared to about 10k. I'm sure they did have electric cars in 1900 but even then people want a vehicle that has a decent range..now people want a range of more than 50 odd miles before it has to spend 7-8 hours plugged in , not very practical if you want to visit some one 100 miles away eh.?

Petrol/diesel cars are a cheap and reliable proven technology.

The first reason this return is happening is legislation....until recently there was no legal requirement for manufacturers to produce very economic/ low emissions cars...so why should they have bothered? Now the EU has an average model range co2 target you are seeing car makers being forced act....cars like the Aston Martin cygnet are only happening to drag down model range co2.

The 2nd reason that electric/hybrid cars etc are coming back is that the massive ramping up of the oil price is making it more financially viable to explore this technology in exactly the same way that it is making it more financially viable to explore for oil reserves that previously were not thought to be cost effective.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, so if all that is true. Why has some of the advances that have been made, and been out there for sometime now, not gone into production ?
If some yank with a glass jar and a coil of wire can get a Hydrogen Petrol hybrid to work, why cant multi billion pounds car makers get it ?
If F1 can do brake energy recycling, why can it not be (in a simple form) put in road cars ?
To show what waste is, the Varon produces more heat energy than drive energy, it like having a massive central heating boiler flat out with big radiators and no windows,doors, or roof on a house.
Why heat the inside of a car with the water system? The exhaust is hotter and gets there quicker. (see old VW beetle for basic system)

Paul141

 

[Anonymous]

There has been and is hydrogen cars from car makers

BMW have over 100 running LINK

Honda have hydrogen fuel cell cars runnIng LINK

Mazda have even had a rotary engine hydrogen car LINK


The reason that they don't build them for general public is again simple:

They cost a fortune Eg the Honda is supposed to cost $140k per car to build
Hydrogen fuel economy is very poor as it has less Engery in it
It takes massive amounts of energy to create hydrogen so it's not very green
It has to be stored at −253 °C (−423.4 °F) to remain liquid or it leaks creating some difficult storage problems
There is no infastructure network for them
People aren't very keen on driving around with a tank of explosive hydrogen under massive pressure in the boot..think Hindenburg Zeplin "oh the humanity" etc etc daft I know as they happily drive around with a tank of rather flammable petrol :crazy:

Regenerative braking (called KERS in F1) is already used in the petrol hybrid road cars like Prius , the electric cars like Peuegot iOn use it , as will the PSA hybrid4 products.

The veyron is a fantastic automotive irrelevance that was built simply because it could be ,it has 10 radiators :

3 heat exchangers for the air-to-liquid intercoolers.
3 engine radiators.
1 for the air conditioning system.
1 transmission oil radiator.
1 differential oil radiator.
1 engine oil radiator.

This is what it takes to control the heat generated by a power plant designed to deliver the 1001 bhp required to overcome the friction of air on the way to 267mph. The engine is a monster, it "eats" 45,000 litres of air per minute when running flat out..that's 4 or 5 days breathing for you or me

A modern road car doesnt generate anything like that level of heat and have very efficient cooling/heating systems that dont waste anything like as much heat. The concept of heat exchange have been tried and dismissed by the automotive market exactly because of systems like the vw beetle which the public decided was crap of the 1st grade as it just didn't supply the amounts of heat required or when the exhaust leaked a bit delivered a healthy slug of carbon monoxide :!: It also means you still have to have a second system for cabin cooling in the form of an air con system as this is what the public expectation has led to demand for. It won't work with diesel engines which are very thermally efficient ( think about how long it takes a diesel car to get upto temp on cold days) so would require additional systems. It also requires additional under bonnet packaging that does not fit with modern car design. So far the water system offers the best packaged system capable of meeting consumer expectations.

At the end of the day It all comes down to cost...the cheapest way to provide people with a personal mobility solution is the internal combustion engine and until the black stuff runs out or legislation is changed to force a movement away from it that will always be the way.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow thanks guys. I seem to have sparked a really scintillating debate. Rcz9191 you really know your stuff and I bow to your wisdom of car engines. I have to say that I am seriously interested in getting a car with a diesel/electric hybrid engine in the future.

I wonder whether you could comment RCZ9191 on the battery size/weight being used. I am ignorant on these matters but I am assuming that there is a battery that stores charge generated by the diesel power.

How far could a car run for on electric power? And how long would it take to charge the battery on purely diesel power?

I imagine that if you were in 'sports mode' all the time, you wouldn't improve mpg much but simply have more bhp at hand.

Your comments are much appreciated.

I

 

[Anonymous]

I do know as the voltage gets up the IEE are starting to say you need to be trained on this electrical device, and it looks like "hoops" will have to be jumped thro.

But TBH its been a long time coming a Diesel hybrid, why on earth was the Prius a petrol ?
Does anyone think the Jag idea is the way forward ? Little VERY efficient turbines running on any combustible. Charge the battery when ever, at night when the turbine can be MORE efficient and if needed run directly from the plant, what do you think ?

By the way you can use KERS on normal cars without electric drive (see the 1st Ferrari system in F1) Risky I know, but possible.
Also exhaust temperature (even on Diesels) at the manifold is there seconds after engine start.
I never wanted to run on 100% Hydrogen (its got to come sometime as the black stuff runs out) just wanted to use it to better the MPG in the same way Re-gen valves do.
Second system for AC ? We already DO have that, now at last on an electric pump so its not dragging the engine so much (no clutch mech and all that) but its got its own system, with its own fluid (as it has to, to work) but its true, we would rather use that than wind down the window, do you think that's why there is more "Man Flu" ? ?

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

KERS sounds like a great idea (I had to google it though LOL!) but why is it risky?

I guess like everything else, the decision to try and exploit a new technology is financially driven. Which I think is what you are suggesting Paul.

If I had KERS it would mean that I could brake a lot more because in the interests of fuel economy I do try not to use the brake pedal and so therefore I also try not to over use the gas pedal!

 

[Anonymous]

The voltage in the ev cars is already well over what trained electricians work with in our homes , the Peugeot iOn runs 330v in the drive train, the mechanics already have to be trained so they don't fry themselves when working on it. Not sure how the maintence of Ev's will progress when they fall outside the dealer networks which may be one of the reasons (along with residual value control) that manufacturers only want to lease them to people, im sure there would be alot of bad publicity if "fred under the arches" vaporised himself by sticking his spanners somewhere he shouldnt. God knows who the regulatory body would be.

Like you I cant really understand why no one combined diesel & electric before , it does seem obvious to combine the two...however most EV/hybrid has been driven from the Japanese where diesel didn't seem to be a big interest...remember how long took Honda to produce a diesel engine.

The jag C-X75 concept is interesting in that it uses the Jet turbines to charge the battery giving an extended range EV hybrid. The plug in ZEV range of it is low at 68 miles in ideal conditions with 2 turbines then kicking in to charge the batteries for another 500 odd miles of range or direct drive the motors for performance. It's still burning fuels but can accommodate many different bio fuels making it even greener. I think it would sound awesome but the system cost would again be prohibitive for main stream transport IIRC Jag quoted £200+k as an estimate at unveil in sept 2010 and this had ramped up to 700k - 900kby May 11 , the ZEV range has dropped to 30 miles and alot of the interesting features like the turbine system had been dropped LINK

I agree that KERS doesn't necessarily need an electrical system but it is a neater solution for a road car, storing the energy mechanically in a flywheel system again leads to packaging problems for passenger vehicles.

Yes manifold temp is here from just after start up but the underbonnet packaging of modern cars makes using an air heat exchange system a non starter with that sort of systems requirement for heat exchangers and some sort of system to move the air to and from them. Again there is little consumer appetite for such a system. Yes the cooling side of a/c is a separate system, the point I was making badly is that you would have two much less integrated systems that the manufacturer would have to pacakage into a car without unacceptable system performance compromises in the eyes of the consumer.

The motor industry will do things in the cheapest way it can for as long as it can which is why there has been slow advances in this area, it's only legislation, oil supply & prices and some limited customer pressure that has led to movement. If he black stuff wasn't running out we wouldn't even be having this converation, apparently in Qatar fuel is so cheap that people leave cars running for the whole day just to keep the a/c cooling the car :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

KERS sounds like a great idea (I had to google it though LOL!) but why is it risky?

I guess like everything else, the decision to try and exploit a new technology is financially driven. Which I think is what you are suggesting Paul.

If I had KERS it would mean that I could brake a lot more because in the interests of fuel economy I do try not to use the brake pedal and so therefore I also try not to over use the gas pedal!

Mechanical KERS stores the energy in a flywheel type system , imaging the energy in a 8kg lump of metal spinning at 60-70,000 rpm, the risk is what happens if it breaks... in a car full of people.

The motor industry is profit driven , It will try to do the cheapest solution for as long as possible until it is forced to do it differently by either legislation, circumstances or demand.

With KERS you would probably brake less.... as soon as you lift of the system cuts in producing a pronounced braking effect that feels a bit like the engine effect in a normal car, in an EV like an iOn you start to anticipate the road conditions much more and use less brakes and more KERS to slow down improving the range of the vehicle :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

Spot on with the high speed flywheel !
I think FIA asked what if it launched its self into the crowd ? They also had problems with the gyro effect it had, I think I recall.
BMW have been using the "shunt the charger unit into high gear" causing engine braking to be lots more for a few years, not took off anywhere else, shame as they get their 2.0 D to do VERY good MPG with that a a few other "simples".
Love the Jag idea, of course it cost for the 1st one and its new tooling etc. BUT the idea ......

As for Fred, he has a shock coming (pun intended) but I am told even the stealer's are having to jump a few hoops.
Its about time we got air valve engines, they been out there for a time now, it is like VVT but on a massive scale. We could have 100% torque from almost tick over to 10,000 rpm on a Diesel.

Just a thought, and I am aware its not enough, why do electric cars not have solar panel roofs and bonnets ? Then when it stands not being used it would a least help with the recharge ?

Paul