Engine Fault. P1338 code. Timing Chain?

[ianGT156]

Hi Everybody.

I had my 156 minor serviced and MOTd by a non Peugeot dealer on Friday 12th July. The next day I was going to do a short 11 mile round trip, however, after about 1/3 mile I noticed the car was running a bit lumpy. Initially I thought it might be due to the four new brake pads and new front disks just fitted. It wasn't.

Engine Fault Repair Needed. I turned round and went straight home. I called my breakdown service. The call handler told me that in these circumstances all they normally do is give you a recovery service to a garage of your choice. Well the chap turned up ready to take me somewhere. I asked him if he had a diagnostics machine so I could find out what the fault was. He said his little machine was very basic but he gave it a go.

P1338 - misfire on cylinder 2. Well historically I've had this misfiring issue at least twice, once was well over a year ago. The car sounds like a bad diesel but it very quickly returned to running smoothly. On this occasion I got that error code and most bizarrely of all, the fans ran on full blast for five minutes after turning off the really quite cool engine. In the two years I've had my Rozie, the fans have NEVER come on after switching off. I've often been curious why not as my old 205GTi used to do this all the time when the engine was hot.

Back to my breakdown chap, Tony. He managed to clear the code whilst I was looking up what the error was. The car started a bit lumpy but soon ran as normal. He was very keen to work out what was going on, which was good as he was just supposed to be doing a recovery. He said that there was a rattle. He got out a long screwdriver and placed it on the chain tensioner and the other end against his ear. He asked me to listen to it too. Sure enough there is a very rattley sound. Could this be the same as the "Mini Death Rattle"? He was of the opinion that the tensioner needs attention. He was with me for over half an hour and he came accross as being very knowledgeable, an old school mechanic if you know what I mean.

Having decided that I didn't need the recovery (just yet) we set off on our original short 11 mile journey. Rozie behaved impeccably. I did loads of detailing as planned and tried her again this evening, 48 hours after last running the engine. I drove up a hill and clatter clatter clatter, Engine Fault again. I let her run for a while and she returned to normal, albeit with the EML on.

She's 6 years 3 months old and done 47000 miles. She had a major service 12 months ago at a Peugeot dealer. New spark plugs were fitted. She also has a brand new MOT.

What do I do? Allow a dealer to rip me off with diagnostics and replace the coils, the HP Fuel pump and get nowhere? Or do I just bite the bullet and get a new timing chain fitted as she'll need one soon anyway due to the poor design. I really am tempted to get the timing chain done as just having the tensioner replaced is just doing part of the job?

I'm expecting it to be £400 - £800. I live in the North East where we have honest mechanics who don't charge £80 an hour for labour.

Ideas very gratefully accepted.

Ian :beer:

 

[Jules1970]

Hi Ian,

I'm having a deja vu reading your post. So far this year I have had to call the RAC as I had a fault with no. 2 cylinder had to have new coil pack, the EM light on so went to local dealer for diagnostics, had new timing chain fitted, less than a month later EM light on again back for diagnostics had to have solenoid replaced.
Took my RCZ 1.6 THP 200 for service and MOT yesterday, went to collect car and was told it only just scraped through emissions test and might need full engine strip down as its burning oil due to the fact I have been using 5w 30 since I bought the car 2013 from Peugeot dealer in Hull and was told that was what I should use and was used by them on my service the following year and at every other service since only to be told after all this time I should have been using 0w 30. :x

Jules

 

[RCZIain]

If you have access to diagnostics i.e Have it yourself, you could do what I did when my RCZ started miss firing.
Swap coils and see if the code moves.

If it does, happy days, coil packs are about £20 each.

Mine would drive fine until I booted it then limp mode, and the engine fan ran after shut off.

 

[ianGT156]

Hi Jules,

wow, that's really scary. There must be a parallel Universe somewhere.

Hi Iain,

I've bought a diagnostic unit but sadly it won't be delivered until tomorrow. I have to do a 10 mile journey to work tomorrow so I'm leaving it with the same garage that did work on it on Friday. I asked them what a timing chain replacement would cost and they immediately told me they haven't got the facilities to do that. I'm also awaiting a callback from the local Peugeot dealer re: the cost of the timing chain replacement.

Oh and btw, I started her up this morning and she's absolutely fine, apart from the fans blasting away for 5 minutes when turned off.

 

[pete.garratt]

Not sure your code has ever been associated with a timing chain issue. They’re normally more like a reported phasing issue or similar and applies to the whole bank, not just a single cylinder.

In my mind, it sounds more like ignition (coil or carbon build up) or high pressure fuel pump.

I know from experience that the start of a fuel pump issue sometimes manifests itself as a misfire. Mine took a few weeks before it finally registered P0087, which is the code for low fuel rail pressure.

As others have said, you could try moving the coil and see if the fault follows it.

I would be tempted to clear the fault and carry on & see what happens for a week or so.

 

[ianGT156]

Hi Pete,

your points are noted. It's the rattling noise that troubles me and the unpredictability of the misfiring.

I normally drive my car very hard and she revs very willingly. I've noticed that the RAC warranty that came with the car is valid until 3rd August. However I don't hold any hope in that paying out a single penny.

 

[ianGT156]

Hot off the Press - Peugeot Main Dealer Timing Chain replacement £873.00

Not too bad I thought, but first I'll let the local garage have a go at fixing Rozie :eusa-think:

 

[pete.garratt]

These engines are known to be a bit rattly at idle.

 

[ianGT156]

Really? I honestly didn't know that, many thanks

 

[neilgsxr69]

Hi, I think keeping driving your car even when it sounds ok is asking for trouble. If your car hasn’t had a new timing kit then it definitely needs one now and that’s the full kit not just the chain or not just the tensioner get the whole kit changed. Now I think your Peugeot dealer has over quoted you :eusa-think: you shouldn’t be paying more than £600 all in that’s what I paid at my local Peugeot dealer, and £500 at a mini specialist for the wife’s Cooper S which is the same engine.
I would definitely let a specialist do the work as it’s a specialist job.
Let us know how you get on :beer:

 

[ianGT156]

Hi Neil,

thanks for the message. I very nervously drove my car to the company that serviced it of Friday. I started her up this morning and all was well at idle. When a bit warmer I revved her at 2500 for a few seconds, no problem. As soon as the temperature gauge started moving I very nervously set off for work and the dealer who serviced her last week. As soon as the engine was under load, going uphill, the misfire happened and the associated beep with the "Your engine is buggered" message.

Another bizarre problem happened just before reaching my destination. The mpg figure and range figure both showed --- . Even the two trip settings showed --- as the average mpg. Well they put her on the diags immediately and it was the same code. Their associated message was different to the "misfire on cylinder 2" that I had quickly found on a search at the weekend. Their message was, "variable valve timing something or other" and they said it's the "timing chain". They confirmed they can't do the work and cleared the error so it was off to Peugeot in Durham. The car was fine for the 14 mile trip and the mpg figures on the dash had magically returned.

Peugeot basically said the same so it's booked in for Friday. I was very lucky to get a courtesy car today because they were all out, one was returned as I was being booked in. They had the itemised quote there which I had requested by phone on Saturday. There is half a page of parts required and the figure is £873. I didn't challenge it as I didn't know better.

They'll do it in a day as it is only 6 hours of work. I got a 24 month RAC warranty when I bought it from a different Peugeot dealer but as expected, they won't pay out as it's a wear and tear item, even though Peugeot have no replacement schedule for the timing chain. I use the honestjohn.co.uk website quite a lot. I seem to remember that they recommend EVERY timing belt/chain should be replaced every 5 or 6 years. I would bet that Toyotas and Hondas last for life.

Has anybody ever driven a Pug 108? I think they forgot to build a dashboard into the car and the gearbox is actually a box of frogs.

 

[neilgsxr69]

Hopefully you’ll be all sorted when you get it back and you can carry on enjoying your RCZ :thumbup:

 

[ianGT156]

Thanks again Neil,

I do appreciate your advice. It is reassuring that I'm not alone in thinking that I should just bite the bullet and get it done.

I did a search for timing belt kits for the RCZ and came up with two particular websites:

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/tim ... eugeot/rcz
https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/timing-chain/peugeot-rcz

There seems to be a myriad of options but none claim to be genuine Peugeot, and all look suspiciously cheap to me.

UPDATE: And this one claiming to be a genuine Peugeot Kit.....

https://peugeot-tuning-parts.co.uk/~cn4 ... t-n14.html

This last one is £283.70 including rocker cover gaskets, VAT and £10 postage.

Obviously that's just for the kit ............ it's a magical mystery tour!!

 

[pete.garratt]

That sounds exactly like fuel delivery issues, not timing chain.

It happens under load: more fuel required, but it couldn’t be delivered, due to low pressure.

Mpg readings showed blank: no detectable fuel flow, due to low fuel pressure (I’d forgotten, mine did this too when my pump failed)

Now, I’m not saying there is absolutely no problem with your timing chain.

However, all the evidence you’ve described says your pump is playing up, not your chain.

 

[wilsofar]

Likewise!

Timing chain replaced ,coil packs ,plugs etc etc which whilst made thing better did not solve the intermittent bad engine running,until the High Pressure Fuel Pump was replaced.

I still think that if that had been done first ( misleading fault codes mithinks!) that would have solved everything especially as the timing chain had been replaced just 20k miles earlier but just out of warranty.

My local garage found the culprit after Peugeot had spent the best part of £2k attempting to solve the problem.

I really hope you find a solution soon as it is so tiresome bashing your head against a brick wall.

Mine runs beautifully now (Tesco 99 )

 

[pete.garratt]

Timing chain replaced ,coil packs ,plugs etc etc which whilst made thing better did not solve the intermittent bad engine running,until the High Pressure Fuel Pump was replaced.

Heard this quite a few times now.

Don’t be so quick to condemn your timing chain because it’s ‘a well known fault’.

There are other things, e.g. fuel pumps.

I would see if other codes emerge in the next couple of weeks. If you have a logging code reader/dongle you can capture data while you’re driving. Part of that data is fuel pressure and whether the engine control is in proper closed loop operation (which it should be when warm). That’s how I confirmed my fuel pump issue.

Here’s a graph illustrating the event I captured:

 

[neilgsxr69]

I know that I was surprised at how cheap the timing kit was direct from Peugeot especially when you get a quote of £800+ fitted, I’m sure Peugeot charged me around £150 for the complete kit.

 

[Rhcz]

Ian I have just had the same issue, my timing chain was replaced last Sept but had now stretched, Peugeot re-did the tensioner, sorted the valve timing and the car now runs great.

 

[ianGT156]

Full update coming on Wednesday 31st July when I finally get a day off work.

 

[ianGT156]

UPDATE:

Since the timing chain was done, I've done 274 miles in 15 days.

She's been cured!!

The breakdown is £315.04 for parts, £412.50 for 6 hours of labour @ £68.75 p/h
Add on 20% VAT for all of that and the grand total is £873.05. The job was
completed in less than a whole day and I did get a free courtesy car, whoopie
doo dah!!

An itemised invoice is here. The invoice name and address isn't mine. It's a company who
the dealer uses to give you interest free instalments for paying the bill. You'll have to click
on the image once to enlarge it:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29239795@N06/48454198812/in/dateposted-public/

My car has behaved impecabbly since then. I have redlined her several times and
done an indicated 106 mph, on a track of course. There is a "but".....

But what remains is the problem of the fans revving at full blast. It happens
immediately after starting, hot or cold, and carries on for exactly five minutes
after the engine is turned off. This first happened when I had the initial
"Your engine is buggered" message". I suspect it also did this the moment I drove off
the dealer's forecourt but I didn't notice it until twenty four hours had elapsed.

I have subsequently bought a diagnostic device, an ANCEL AD310, and there
don't seem to be any faults on the ECU at all. Could this be a simple failed thermostat?

In almost two years of ownership and nearly 15,000 miles I have never heard
the fans before. Those are some mighty fans. The noise is a bit like an Airbus
A380 taxiing. It is so embarrassing that when I park anywhere other than
home, I swiftly leg it away from the car.

I've eaten a large portion of humble pie after stating on my first post above, "I
live in the North East where we have honest mechanics who don't charge £80 an hour".
It was actually £82.50, incl VAT, lol. I had imagined though that I wouldn't be
using a main dealer.

Many thanks to you all for replying to my initial post.

Happy rattle-free motoring to everybody :thumbup: :beer: